[KYHeirloomer]

Thanks for the recipe. I'll definately give this one a whirl soon.

Oxymoron: A dumb steer? Bwahahahahahaha

>I KNOW you bake on vacation!<

Only if you call pancakes baking.

Actually, I rarely if ever bake on vacation. It's just too time consuming. Besides which, I don't think I'd trust the ovens in most places we stay.

Cooking is one thing---you can always adjust for a poorly operating stovetop. But if the oven ain't working right, well, you're just stuck.

[KYHeirloomer]

Jen: I love your proofing box. Just one question: With the heating pad cranked up to high, what does the whole thing rest on?

Alex: At least count there were only three home ovens in the whole world whose thermostat settings resembled the oven heat. Rule #1 for baking: Get an oven thermometer.

Other than that, what sorts of problems have you encountered? There are enough of us here who bake that I'm sure we can walk you through them.

[climbeyalex]

[Knifethrower]

Oops, just read my notes back- if you are using vanilla extract, use 2 teaspoons. If you use paste, use only 1 teaspoon... unless, of course, you are a total vanilla junkie and cannot help yourself.

This loaf makes a killer french toast with custard-like texture if you slice it very thickly, start it in a pan and finish it in the oven on a cookie rack. It puffs up and has a creamy middle if you use enough cream in your egg mixture.
_________________
There is only one way to die- With a full stomach and a good tan.

[KYHeirloomer]

Wow. I've had some of those problems through the years. But never all at once. And usually with whole grain flours, rather than white flour.

I'm hoping others will join in. Let me start the discussion by recommending that you buy (or borrow from the library) Peter Reinhart's The Bread Baker's Apprentice. It can, literally, change your life.

Until reading it, I "baked" by slavishly following recipes. When I got an acceptible loaf I was pleased. When something didn't work I blamed myself. At no point was there any understanding of what was going on.

Then I read Apprentice. And reread it. And lights started going off. Now I have a glimmer of what's involved. And when something (much more rarely, nowadays) does go wrong I can analyze what happened.

I figure in maybe another 20 years or so I'll be able to call myself a baker. But at least now I'm on my way.

Could you be a little more specific about the yeast you are using? Most of what you describe sounds like it's related to how the yeast is reacting with the other ingredients.
Some random thoughts:

1. Proof the yeast. Even if you are using instant yeast (i.e., bread machine yeast) check how alive it it. Mix a teaspoon of the yeast with an equal amount of sugar or honey and 1/4 cup very warm water. Let it sit for ten minutes and see what happens. You should get a grayish, frothy, thick foam-like solution if the yeast is doing it's job.

2. Is this problem with just one recipe or several different ones? One problem could be hydration. Simply put, the dough isn't wet enough---although it is technically not that simple, and has to do with gelatinization of the individual flour particles. Maybe you could post the recipe you've used?

3. Soft flour. If you are using an all purpose flour it might be too soft to support the loaf. Try using bread flour instead.

4. Rise time. Check the rise based on what the dough does, rather than by the clock as so many recipes indicate. Let's say the recipe says 1 1/2 hours. Depending on several factors, the dough might double in bulk in anything from an hour to two or even three hours.

5. Too much yeast. Sounds strange, I know. But experienced bakers strive to use just the amount of yeast necessary to do the job. Too much yeast can cause too-rapid fermentation. This might be the "beery" smell you percieve. But it can also cause the thick, hard crusts. What happens is that the too-rapid fermenting of the yeast stretches the dough too far, and it collapses. Thus, you're lack of rise and oven-spring.
The crust results from caremalization of natural sugars on the surface of the dough. With too rapid fermentation, a greater amount of starch is converted to sugar. But because the dough has collapsed, more of those sugars lie on the surface, and caremalize to that thick, hard coating.

6. Consider pre-ferments and retarded fermentation. I know, the idea of taking two or three days to make bread is alien to most people. But some of these techniques really make sense. For me, a decent whole-grain bread is impossible without them.
If you go this route you'll be learning a new language. It just goes with the turf. But, on the upside, just think of how expert you'll sound when you start tossing around words like autolyze and indirect dough and hydration levels. Or how smug you'll feel knowing the difference between a "poolish" and a "biga."

[dory]

I am going to make the vanilla challah! Thank you for the recipe! It sounds like just what my Colombian-born husband would like. They have a lot of challah-like breads in Colombia-- very similar textures.

[Knifethrower]

KYH-

Glad to share the box method. Its pretty darned sweet once you try it.

I've never had a nice countertop to ruin... I never thought too much about it.

I put the heating pad on another beach towel on the counter. I suppose if you had a marble pastry slab (and something tells me you just might!), that is probably enough protection.

I suppose you could elevate the pad off the counter with another cooling rack, since heat rises no matter what.

Thoughts?

Dory-

Please do let me know how it comes out!

Climbeyalex-

Don't think I didn't make my share of loaf pan sized dog biscuits myself as I was learning, too. KYH is pretty much right on track with the steps I recall learning to make bread. I think if you take one process at a time and get accustomed to what it is supposed to look and feel like at that stage, you will be able to pull it all together. Be patient. People who make totally awesome bread seem as if its effortless have been at it a very, very long time. I am nowhere near mediocre yet myself.
_________________
There is only one way to die- With a full stomach and a good tan.

[KYHeirloomer]

>I suppose if you had a marble pastry slab (and something tells me you just might!),<

I love the way you keep attributing great equipment to me. Were that it was so!

Just so we're on the same page, I have a tiny kitchen with very little counter space at all. So little, in fact, that my stationary power tools (blender, stand mixer, food processor) are stored on top of the fridge, and have to be taken down each time for use. Indeed, I built special boards to fit over the sink and stovetop, just to extend my workspace.

Obviously, no room for a marble pastry slab.

Even if I had the room, however, that's one thing I'd forego. I am not a baker---except for bread. Very occasionally, as a special treat for Friend Wife, I'll make biscotti. But that's the extent of it.

I grew up without a baking tradition. At my house the aroma of fresh baked bread wafted up from a white paper bag, not from the oven. There were four bakeries within walking distance, and that's where we got our baked goods.

It's only been in the past two years or so that I've been truly learning about bread. Until then, when I baked it was by strict adherence to the recipe. And boy oh boy, are there some bad ones out there. Some great ones too, of course.

But once I understood the idea of bread formulas, any recipe that uses volume measurements instead of weight leaves me suspicious. In other words, guilty until proven innoscent.

[KYHeirloomer]

Jen, the reason I was so intriqued by your proofing box is precisely because I have no space.

When I'm proofing dough it sits on top of a wicker basket in the bathroom, with the door closed, to keep the temperature fairly constant and the drafts away.

Seems to me your set-up could go just about anywhere. I intend giving it a try, that's for sure.

[KYHeirloomer]

>and get accustomed to what it is supposed to look and feel like at that stage, you will be able to pull it all together<

Alex, this is probably the single best piece of advice you can get. Dough that's ready to make good bread has a particular feel to it. It tells you when it's ready.

You know how most bread recipes tell you to adjust with additional flour if necessary? That's what they're aiming at. However, left out of the instructions is that it might take more liquid to achieve that goal.

I know, you're saying, "but I don't know what that feel is supposed to be." Trust me, I sympathize, as I was in the same situation. I didn't know anybody who baked, so couldn't learn from them.

Thus, I had to learn on my own. And you do that by paying attention.

The dough, for most breads, should be "slightly tacky but not sticky." Yeah, right. Just what does that mean?

There are several techniques for determining that point. But mostly you pay attention to the feel of the dough. If you get a perfect, or near perfect loaf you then know what to strive for next time. Eventually the feel becomes second nature.

My suggestion is that proceed that way. Once you think you've learned what it should feel like, you can then learn about things like windowpanes, and dough temperatures. But learn the feel first. And do it by making errors, if that's what it takes.

One other thing, to add to my possible causation list: How are you kneading? I mean the specific method and technique? Kneading is done to develop the gluten in the flour, and, if done incorrectly, gives you the kind of results you've described. Although there are minor differences, depending on the dough, about 99% of the time you're talking about kneading ten minutes by hand, or half that by machine. Anything less may cause problems. [/i]

[Knifethrower]

KYH,

If we all had our fantasy kitchen, we'd probably want to be buried in it.

Let me know where you finally decide to park your box. My new kitchen will not be too big, either, and the floor won't survive a curious hound for sure.

I watched my mother bake Challah weekly for the sabbath, but she hogged all the kneading therapy for herself, then bought a Kitchenaid and it was all over.

I was not a baker of bread until many years later when my friend's husband showed me how to do it all by hand. He made his own flour in a Bosch mill, built a marble topped bread baking island/cart with his mill, buckets of whole grains and tools inside. He was doing six loaves a week, half for his parents who lived two doors down. He is my hero, I swear. He taught me so much.

Once I learned how to do it, I was unstoppable and unbelievably plump. I got braces, swore off carbs and sugar and became a health nut. I have not made bread since, but as I said, Rosh Hashana is coming and I am totally going for it. I have, obviously, fallen off the wagon, but I keep it to a low roar. I'd rather make it myself than buy it any day, and Brian is a total Challah junkie. Obviously, my mother loves this guy more than she loves me...
_________________
There is only one way to die- With a full stomach and a good tan.

[KYHeirloomer]

I love my Kitchen Aid, Jen. But if I didn't have this dam ed flexer tendenitis I would gladly trade it in and go back to hand kneading. As you note, it is thereputic.

Plus, it should go without saying, that when you knead by hand you really learn the feel of the dough.

As to the proofing box, I have a small extra bedroom I use for my seed saving stuff. There's an old work table in there, and I'm sure I can clean off enough room for the box. Nothing there that a heating pad can harm.

[climbeyalex]

KYHeirloomer, thanks so much for the tips. Whew. I normally use dry yeast from sachets and I also proof them even then the recipe doesn't say to. The exception is for the no-knead breads. And its not just one recipes, it happens just about everytime I make bread, if its not one thing, its another or everything. As for flour, I mostly use all purpose unless the recipe tells me otherwise. Guess that might be quite a problem. I'm not sure about rising times, normally, I'd follow the book, its usually an hour or when I see that its more or less doubled (my estimation skills leaves much to be desired). I'm always worried about over fermentation since room temperatures here can be quite high, my kitchen gets a lot of direct sun in the mornings.

[KYHeirloomer]

Alex, I suspect two things are contributing.

First, try shifting to bread flour. It's higher protein level will help assure gluten development. Gluten is what causes the dough to stretch without breaking, allowing it to trap bubbles of CO2. This is what causes it to rise, in the first place, and produce that nice holey crust.

Second, from what you say I think you're adding too much flour as you knead the dough. "Tacky but not sticky" sounds kind of nebulous, I know. But that's what good dough feels like. It's a reflection of the hydration level (which just means how much moisture it contains).

What's happening with yours, I suspect, is that you've added so much more flour to achive that smooth, silky dough that it doesn't gelatinize. Gluten formation suffers, and thus the bread doesn't rise.

Next time try working in just enough more flour so you can handle the dough, but there's still a slight sticky feel. It's not like it will actually stick to your hands, you understand. But it will act as if it wants to.

How are you kneading. I don't me just by hand, but the mechanics of what you are doing. The turn, fold, push method seems to work best for most people. It surely helps gluten develop when you use that method.

BTW, you cannot really over ferment. There is just so much starch for the yeast to feed on, and then it dies. As it feeds it converts the starch to sugar, and produces two by-products: alcohol and CO2. The alcohol is probably the beery smell you are getting. What may be happening, iven your heat levels, is that fermentation is taking place too quickly, and instead of getting trapped by the dough the CO2 is trickling off.

You might try a delayed fermentation. Mix up the dough in the evening. Transfer to an oiled bowl as usual. Cover. And put it in the fridge overnight. It will rise somewhat, but likely not double. Not even close.

Take it out in the morning, and let it rise until doubled in bulk. It will take somewhat longer than usual. But several things will have happened (one result of which is that the bread will taste better). Punch it down, shape it, let it rise again, and bake.

[spellchick]

climbeyalex, you've said-- "Also, for some reason, I've never had dough that will 'spring back' when I press it with a finger even though it's risen to twice its size. Very bizzare."
Yet I've always read that dough has risen enough DOES NOT spring back when poked, but keeps the dents your fingers have made.